And I Thought Things Were Interesting Before…

Doug Wilson posted an article detailing three reasons why he believes there ever was a controversy over the Federal Vision.  Here’s a little flavor:

First, the commitment of the historic Reformed groups to the doctrine of six day creation has gone wobbly, and the FV controversy has had two beneficial side effects for those who are cool with that wobbliness. The first is that the FV folks are, taking one thing with another, much more conservative on these questions of creation. For just one example, consider Jim Jordan’s Creation in Six Days. To bring the most likely critics of the wobble under suspicion on other grounds makes the denominations free to continue in their wobbly ways. The second side effect is that if you chase people out of your denomination for “denying the gospel of justification by faith alone,” that sure looks like something a conservative would do. So the people doing it must be “conservative” — even though they have in effect given away the store on the question of origins.

Read the rest here.  Can’t be long until the story develops — what do you think?  Is the FV controversy a smoke screen?  Is Wilson’s post itself a smokescreen?

Justification is by faith + nothing, and many respected anti-FV folks suggest that Wilson doesn’t share this view.  I find myself torn.  I have a hard time w\ the vitriol I see for Wilson.  His writing has helped me understand the Christian Faith immensely.  I’ve never actually read any of the faith + arguments that Wilson is credited with holding, but perhaps I’ve just not reading the right (wrong?) books?

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  • Robert

    Hi Jason! To answer your question, I think that the smoke here is coming from Wilson, as he is explicitly attempting to shift the conversation over to a different controversy (or two, depending on what he means about the women-in-office thing, which wasn’t clear to me [is he lumping this in with the creation-day controversy or with the FV controversy?]). As to his views on justification, I have not read any of his stuff (until he blog you linked to); but in it he does clearly set himself in the FV camp. I also find it disturbing that he implies that holding to an interpretation of the days of creation as 24-hour periods is more important than having a proper understanding of justification.

  • http://jonspach.com Jason Anspach

    He’s certainly drawing attention to other issues, rather than answering criticisms. Perhaps his position is that doesn’t hold a works based salvation & is commenting from that perspective.

    I think he’s taking a dig at Tim Keller (or the PCA) for the way they’ve been dancing around the issue of female deacons.

    I’ve found that FV seems to mean different things depending on who is elaborating, which doesn’t help with the confusion as every keeps saying “well that’s not what I believe…”

  • kristina

    im so glad you can understand him. i have such a hard time, i guess only scholars can be FV :(

  • David

    You would be right if there was actually a conversation to be shifted. Unfortunately, FV opponents have almost universally avoided any conversations with Wilson and have insisted on just labeling him a heretic etc. Wilson has devoted numerous blog posts, books, and gone on the record publicly in numerous cases and FV opponents have mostly ignored it. One prominent exception to this is his interaction with ‘GreenBaggins’ in which ‘GreenBaggins’ ended up coming up with much less substantive differences than previously assumed and really just proved that opponents of FV are opposing a caricature. The main problem in this whole FV thing is that folks aren’t interacting with it from the Bible. Wilson has interacted with the issues on his blog repeatedly (search for ‘Federal Vision’ on his blog). Really, I think in his recent post, Wilson is saying that because PCA has refused to have a conversation and really hammer out the details of their differences, he suspects his critics of perhaps straining at gnats and swallowing camels. PCA folks want to say that the FV represents some sort of theological ‘liberalism’ while Wilson is arguing that some of the other things the PCA has opened the door wide open to represent a far more insidious liberalism. I really don’t think he has any personal bone to pick with Keller, but I’m sure he probably has some concern about some of the tendencies he sees there.

    Here’s a old conversation between Michael Horton & Douglas Wilson. Perhaps it will be helpful.
    http://www.canonwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/wilsonhorton.mp3

  • http://jonspach.com Jason Anspach

    I’m not even sure the scholars universally understand it.

  • http://jonspach.com Jason Anspach

    David! Welcome to the blog and thanks for the comment. I’ll give that link a listen to tomorrow. I had read greenbaggins for a while, slacked off lately, though.

    Do you find much variation in the FV camp? Wilson seems utterly orthodox from what I’ve seen, but there seems to be a sinister faith + works group alluded to just beyond him by Clark & others. What is your experience with that?

  • David

    I think Wilson interacts with that near the end of that audio discussion. I think he would say that yes, there are a spectrum of views within the FV, but the only reason there is a FV is because a group of folks organized against it right out of the gates. In short, the conference that kicked the whole controversy off was basically asking some questions and suggesting possible solutions. It was hardly monolithic and was inviting discussion in order to refine it. Unfortunately, almost immediately they were called heretics for even starting a discussion and consequently were essentially forced to defend something that wasn’t monolithic, refined, etc. Thats why its been messy and thats why its essential that folks try to do their homework on particular FV folks to really find out what the differences are. That’s also why Christian charity and grace ought to be present during these discussions. It’s been like a game of telephone gone rabid.

  • Andrew Fisher

    Bingo with you last statement there. Trying to pin down FV proponents is real difficult. Other FV authors, besides Wilson are much more controversial to read.
    Also, I think the Faith+ arguments against FV are a bit weak. The reason FV’s are even viewed as having a Faith+ stance is because of their view of the covenant. If you hold that view you’re almost bound to accept their view of justification.
    Personally speaking I find the FV ideas about justification far less disturbing than their views about perseverance and the covenant church. FV does such damage to the fifth point of Calvinism as to render it almost unrecognizable. The idea that every member of the visible church receives “real union with Christ,” and real “workings of the Holy Spirit,” and then some are “not granted to blessing of perseverance, and fall away,” is hopelessly bothersome to me. Rather than trying to force all FV proponents into the NPOP camp, maybe we should deal with some of the more overtly troublesome doctrines. Then again, I’m sure most FV’s will just say “well that’s not what I believe…”

  • Glenn Fisher

    Thanks for alerting me to this discussion Jason. This is unquestionably a diversion. First, you will have no problem finding people that are vehemently opposed to FV and anything other than 6-day (see Greenville et. al.) How does Wilson explain their opposition? Perhaps their are harboring some secret “liberalism”? Second, Wilson’s argument assumes that concerns with FV are not sincerely held. This is the type of aspersion that FV supporters are always complaining about. If you believe that Christian charity is needed in this discussion then Wilson’s comments seem to be a hindrance.

  • Glenn Fisher

    Oops, make that “nothing but 6 day”

  • http://twitter.com/aquatiki Robert Murphy

    There _is_ a lot genuinely wrong with FV formulations AND a lot of straw-men invented by the opponents. Most FV’s writings are vague and amorphous. One of the primary things wrong with them is they take barroom debates and put them in books.

  • http://jonspach.com Jason Anspach

    “Nailing Jello to the wall” is the phrase I hear most often. That doesn’t bode well for my plan to just print out all of my blog posts and label it a systematic theology. But then again, maybe it does.

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