Live your theology.

Your paraphrase of Ephesians 2:8 is not correct.  What Paul says is we are saved through faith, “not by works, so that no one can boast”.  Paul doesn’t use the phrase “Faith Alone”, and he doesn’t say that works play no part in salvation.  If he actually used the phrase “Faith Alone”, he would be contradicting James’s explicit statement in 2:24.  

Ephesians 2:8
FALSE: Works Alone  –> SalvationTRUE: Faith is required for SalvationJames 2:24FALSE:  Faith Alone results in Salvation

You can reconcile these any way you want, that is the whole point of sola scriptura and why there are thousands of Protestant denominations.  But if you believe that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth, then you may also believe Trent and Orange.

Trent:  FALSE:  Faith Alone results in Salvation  Orange:FALSE: Works Alone, without Grace, results in SalvationAll these statements can be true if you believe that to be saved, Grace is required.  One cannot be saved apart from Grace.  

When Paul says “we are saved through faith”, he does not in any way mean that we are saved through “dead” faith, that is, a faith devoid of love.  What he means is we are saved through LIVING faith, that is, a faith that includes agape.  In Corinthians, Paul says that agape is the greatest of (Faith/Hope/Love), and in Galatians he says “The only thing that counts is faith working through love”.  

Here is the Catholic paradigm contrasted with the reformed paradigm:
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/

Hi Guest,

You’ve referenced a whole mess of gripes from thousands of denominations (though one church, praise be to God) to Sola Scriptura to an attempt of reconciling James & Paul.

First, you beg the question and invalidate your argument by insisting that the only way Paul would mean we’re saved by faith is if he used the word “alone”.  If you’re going to assume your arguments to be true, well, what’s the point of exchange?

The Ephesians passage makes it clear that salvation is through faith - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul says again in Romans 3:24-26 that Abraham was justified by faith and not works.

You seem to be taking on the error that there is a true type of faith known as dead faith, or faith without love or works.  There is no such thing.  There is faith or there is no faith.  Faith without love or works is a mask.  Borrowing the title but devoid of the substance.  

James is standing up to those with dead so-called “faith” and using the evidence of works as justification of a saving faith. He’s pointing out that a true faith will always be accompanied by works.  It does much less harm to the text to believe Paul at his word (we’re saved by faith) and understand James’ point that a dead faith without works is no faith at all (duh, right?) and that a man claiming faith is justified (??????? – note that James makes it passive) by the inclusion of works.  Even better, I don’t have to beg the question to make my point.

You said:

“You seem to be taking on the error that there is a true type of faith known as dead faith, or faith without love or works.”   Dead faith exists, it is the kind of faith held by demons.  The Greek word, which is sometimes translated as “faith”, sometimes as “belief”, is “pistis” – it is the noun that comes from the word “pistevo”, which means “believe”.  Having “pistis” in God is (at minimum) believing in God.  James makes it clear that the demons believe in God, i.e. they have pistis – “belief” in God.  Of course, they don’t have what counts, which is faith + agape (“faith working through love”).  

If you interpret Paul’s “faith” referred to in Ephesians 2:8, as more than belief, then I agree with you.  But when James says “faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead”, he is referring to a different definition of the word.  

I would interpret the kind of “faith” James warns against as a faith devoid of agape, in other words, a faith devoid of sanctifying grace.  In other words, belief without agape.  

Your interpretation holds up James’s epistle as a hypothetical exercise.  If it is really just hypothetical, then who is the “foolish person” in his epistle?  And how can you explain his comment that “a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone”, if someone doesn’t actually think they are justified by faith alone?  And why would James write a whole chapter addressing a situation that cannot exist?  

If you believe faith alone does not save you, or if you believe that justifying faith is always accompanied by works, then you agree with Trent.  
But, if you believe faith alone actually save you, then you disagree with James.  

Hi again Guest,

Thanks for the response.  I’m enjoying the dialog.You say that to believe we are saved by faith alone is to disbelieve James.  We are justified by grace, and faith (a gift from God), is how we receive that grace.  To say we are not justified by grace alone through faith alone is to disbelieve Paul and to cite James in support of such a doctrine is to misinterpret the Scripture.James is pointing out the difference between a saving faith, and a dead faith or belief.  That’s his entire premise: James references a faith without works and asks rhetorically (note – you insert the word hypothetical. Rhetorical and hypothetical are not the same thing) – can that faith save them?  The answer is no — because mere belief in the existence of God is not a saving faith.  To acknowledge that saving faith is accompanied by works, as James does, is much, much different than reading in the idea that it is keeping the law as well as receiving faith which saves.  This seems to be a sticking point as you seem to suggest that it is belief in God + agape that saves.  It is the grace of God received through faith that allows for the propitiation of Christ’s blood that saves.  None of these things involve good works and all of them are monergistic.  This is a faith that no one can come to without receiving it as a gift from God — and we will know that faith exists through the works that always accompany.  James, Jesus, and Paul all point to works as evidence of faith, not acts of justification. If it were not so, we could boast in the works we complete for our justification and God makes  a point of giving us faith precisely so none will boast… your premise demands that we interpret all of Scripture to allow for your interpretation of one chapter of James (which requires an assumed belief and ignores the rhetorical introduction made at the start of the chapter) against SEVERAL chapters of Paul & the author of Hebrews.  It is a poor hermeneutic to do such a thing, especially when the content of James’ epistles make no such demands when read with the rest of Scripture in mind and in the proper context.  I look forward to your response — but if you’re going to leave 3 comments on the blog, please also give me the courtesy of knowing your name! ;)

Hi Jason,

Did you get my last reply?  I thought I posted it…  anyways, my name is Jon, and I’m enjoying the dialog too.  

My previous post was longer, but the gist was this:

If your understanding of James is that we are not justified by “mere belief”, then we agree.  That is my understanding of it too.  I would interpret James 2:24 this way:

“In this way man is justified by works [faith working through love], and not by faith [mere belief] alone.”  

In addition, if you agree that we are not justified by “mere belief”, then you can agree with Trent as well.  When Trent says we are not justified by “faith alone”, the meaning is exactly what James’s meaning is, i.e. we are not justified by “mere belief in God”.  On the contrary, we are justified by the kind of faith that works through love, i.e. living faith, or as some Protestants might say, “real” faith.    

You also said this:

“This is a faith that no one can come to without receiving it as a gift from God”.

Total agreement here.  God offers this gift to all men, and man can accept or reject it.  

Jason, one more thing … regarding the scriptural basis of whether faith PLUS AGAPE is required for salvation - 

The point is that there is nothing in scripture stating that faith (belief) WITHOUT agape is justifying.  On the contrary, scripture states repeatedly the significance of agape for salvation, and James says that we are not justified by faith (mere belief) alone.  It has always been the Catholic belief  that sanctifying grace includes faith, hope, and agape.  

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. 1 John 5:3

Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? James 2:5

For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much Luke 7:47

and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing [?????]. 1 Cor 13:2

If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. 1 Cor 16:22

But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 1 Thess 5:8

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Tim 1:5

and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 1:4

Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 1:13

in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved [?????????] His appearing. 2 Tim 4:8

and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love [??????] of the truth so as to be saved. 2 Thess 2:10

Hi again Jon,

I saw your comments but have been short of time to give a thorough reply. You say that there is nothing in Scripture stating that faith without agape is justifying, but this is untrue.

“For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” Romans 3:28

“Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” Galatians 3:11

“yet we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.” Galatians 2:16

“just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: ‘Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.’” Romans 4:6-8

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.” Romans 4:2

So your statement that Scripture doesn’t say faith apart from works of the law justifies is incorrect.  You’re viewing the whole of Scripture through one passage in James which can be easily reconciled by examining the verses you’ve already listed (true faith is always accompanied by good works, but these works do not justify).  This is the same principle given in Matthew 12:33-37 where Christ says that we’ll be known by our fruit. As I’ve said before, this is a poor hermeneutic in that it sacrifices many clarifying texts for the sake of a rigid interpretation of one proof text.  

As for your statement that faith is a gift from God that we are free to reject, obviously there is disagreement. However, I believe if you hold that to be true, that we are free to accept the gift or reject it (contrary to Romans 8:30) I think you do more damage than good to your position as it absolutely leaves room for boasting contrary to Scripture clarifications otherwise.

Thanks for the replies, btw!

Hi Jason,

Regarding predestination being opposed to free will, that is false dichotomy, and a separate topic… we can get into that a little later if there is the time.  In any case, we cannot believe God predestines anyone to Hell.  

**** 

Why do you say I am viewing scripture through just one verse?  I listed about 10 verses that state very clearly the importance of agape for salvation.  You’re just table pounding when you restate that I am looking only at James.  

None of the verses you listed even mention agape.  You mentioned Abraham, but you also know he was called a “friend of God”.  This  implies he had not only belief in God, but also agape.  You cannot have friendship with God without love.  

All the verses you listed are talking about works of the law.  None of them say that “faith ALONE” saves you.  You are equating “works of the law” with agape, and Paul never equates those two concepts.

See if you can find one verse that says faith WITHOUT agape is justifying.  

Jon

We’re agreed that no one is predestined to go to Hell.  To characterize that as the reformed position is to argue against a straw man to be certain.

All the verses you gave say nothing of justification, they only speak to the characterization of faith. That the faith given as a gift by God is marked by love (not to mention joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control) is not to prove that we are justified by works.  

I don’t need to read ALONE into any verse because Paul does it for me when he says APART from works.  You say that agape is something different, but agape is the Greek word for love and the great commandments are marked by agape – love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself.  This is precisely the agape found in faith.  It is precisely the proper keeping of the law and as such it is explicitly stated to not justify.  We are justified by a faith that has with it love.  We are not justified by the love.  This is not a problem for the reformed position because a justifying faith will always have love.

Love is always used as an illustration to show true faith.  That’s why I say you read into verses (just as you beg the question regarding Abraham in spite of Paul’s clear statement of how he was justified).  Anytime faith without love is put forward as adequate, it should be rebuked.  That doesn’t mean works should be elevated in spite of clear Scripture to the contrary.  You seem to believe that the reformed teaching is that dead faith saves — it isn’t, nor has it ever been.  I apologize if I read too much into your assessment of the reformed view based on your earlier comment about beings predestined to hell, but it does make me think that you’ve been arguing against a position of your own making rather than what the reformed position actually is.

I’m sorry if I come across as pounding the table, but my friend, I feel you are doing the very same.  Only you continue to beg the question in order to do so.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the reply.  I think I understand now why you think the verses I listed have no bearing on justification.  

My intent here is to characterize your beliefs or create straw men.  It’s hard to convey these things over text.  Please forgive me if I have come across this way.   

Rather, I am trying explain the Catholic position and I hope to show you how the Catholic formulation / interpretation of scriptures is closer than you may realize to your own interpretation.  You say “obviously there are some differences”, and maybe so, but my purpose is more to bridge understanding, because I interpret Trent’s declarations in a different way from what I read in your post.

I would like to get back to your statement that agape is equivalent to works of the law.  But I would first like to make sure I understand your position.  Is it this?

1. We are not justified by “dead faith”.  When James uses the words “dead faith”, he means something like “mere belief”, which is not “real” faith.  

2. We are not justified by “mere belief”, ie intellectual assent to a particular set of doctrinal statements.

3. We are justified by “living faith”, and “living faith” is required for justification.  

4. In Ephesians 2:8, when Paul uses the word “faith”, he means “living faith”.  

5. Agape is “found in” living faith.   (You used the words “found in” above, but I am not sure this is what you mean.)

6. Even though agape is “found in” living faith, agape is not actually required for justification, because we are justified apart from agape.  

Please let me know if I understand you.  I think I must be misunderstanding something, but I’m not sure what.  

Jon

Sorry, I meant to say is my intent is _NOT_ to characterize your beliefs or create straw men.  Hopefully you got that!

Hi Jason,

I seem to have gotten the threads here all out of order with the order of my reply.  I am so sorry about that!  I am still interested to know if I understand your position (see above). 

I think it is easy to misunderstand Trent if you don’t know how Catholics define their words.  Here are a few points.

1. Catholics do not consider “agape” to be equivalent to “works of the law”.  Agape, or love for God, is a disposition of the heart, not a “doing”.  It is a spiritual gift of God’s grace, in the same sense that faith (belief in God) is a gift of his grace.  Paul says “And the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.”   

If I love God, I will keep His commandments, but loving God does not mean that I have kept his commandments. 

2. Agape (love for God) is a special virtue because it is the source of the other fruits of the spirit (patience, kindness, temperance, chastity, etc.).  Paul says this when he says “Love is patient, love is kind, …”.   It also makes sense.  The reason we grow in these other virtues is because we believe God has given us the gifts of believing in him, loving him, and the hope for salvation. 

3. Catholics feel the need to distinguish between “dead” faith, and living faith, just as James and Paul warn against dead faith.  Trent felt the need to reiterate this distinction, because there were groups of Protestants who were saying that it was their “confidence alone” in Christ’s atoning sacrifice that gave them salvation.  Or the fact that they simply believed themselves justified made them justified.  On the contrary, said Trent.  True faith is a grace of God, and anyone who has living faith also has love for God and will try to keep His commandments (not that they will succeed or have always kept His commandments in the past).  Without love for God, there is no new life in the Spirit, and faith is dead.  Trent said that simply having confidence in salvation, without love for God, is not justifying. 

Now, it is possible and quite likely that many of these Christians who believed in God or believed they were justified also loved God.  Trent’s anathema would have applied to anyone at the time who was teaching that simply having confidence in salvation was sufficient for justification. 

4. Because living faith is necessary for justification, and living faith implies the existence of agape, Catholics believe agape is necessary for justification, and for salvation. 

Like I said earlier, believing that agape is part of living faith neatly squares away all the verses that speak of love being required for salvation, and the verses that promise salvation for those who love Him. 

Let me explain:  if one does not love God, one is accursed (1 Cor 16:22), and you cannot be justified if you are accursed.  One cannot be justified unless also sins are forgiven, and if I do not love God, then my sins are not forgiven. (Luke 7:47).  Those who love God are promised to be rich in faith and “heirs of the kingdom” – you cannot be a heir of the kingdom unless you are justified.  One cannot be justified if one is “nothing” (1 Cor 13:2).  To receive the crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:8), which is promised to all who love him, one has to be justified.  I take this as meaning that the crown of righteousness is not given to those who don’t love Him.  Without love, one will perish in wickedness, and no one who perishes in wickedness can be justified.  (2 Thess 2:10)

In Romans 8:30, it talks about the elect who are predestined to be justified and glorified.  Who are the elect?   He says this right before in 8:28.  “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”  The elect are those who love God. 

5. The source of agape is in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.  His act was the ultimate gift of love, dying for his friends.  It is because of that loving sacrifice that our sins are atoned for and forgiven.  The forgiveness of sins makes possible a loving relationship with God, or friendship with God.  We receive the gift of love from the source of love, God himself.

6. The gift of agape we receive, because of its source in Christ’s sacrifice, fulfills all the requirements of the law.  (Romans 13:8).